This week on Security Confidential host Manoj Tandon has Jordan Graham as his guest. Jordan has been in the cybersecurity business for over 3 years and a six sigma black belt. He is a former Marine with an extensive background in process management. Jordan is an avid Bowhunter and is a participant on the podcast “The Bowhunters Heritage”. In this episode of Security Confidential, Jordan discusses how his learnings and techniques as a bowhunter apply to cybersecurity. The topics discussed in this episode are:

00:10 Introduction

01:44 Why Bowhunting?

07:09 Overcoming a disadvantaged position, Cyber Insurance!

13:32 The objective SWOT analysis to get the highest chance for success

17:39 The hunter’s mentality for business success

19:50 Be decisive

22:14 Turning a disadvantaged position to an advantaged one

25:47 Addressing unknown-unknowns in cybersecurity

32:01 The role of patience in threat hunting

37:20 Lessons from the Marine Corps

44:32 The Bowhunters Heritage

To learn more about Dark Rhino Security please visit https://darkrhinosecurity.com This episode is available as a podcast on your favorite podcast outlet or at https://anchor.fm/security-confidenti… 

 

Video Transcript

– Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Dark Rhino Security Confidential. Today, we are honored to have our very own Jordan Graham on the show. Jordan is our Operations Manager. He’s also a bow hunter, and we’ve asked him to come on and give us some lessons about bow hunting and how they apply to business. Jordan has his own podcast as well, “The Push,” you can check it out on the various outlets where podcasts are available, but Jordan, welcome to the show.

– Yeah, thanks for that, it’s happy to be back again. This is round number three or four, I think it is?

– I think, this is number two officially, number two, ’cause we talked about SOC,

– Officially.

– We talked about SOC2, and we could have done SOC2 again, but do we wanna put everybody to sleep just now?

– No, let’s have some fun today.

– Let’s have some fun, so there’s a lot of relevance, and I gotta tell you, I don’t know much about bow hunting. In fact, I don’t know anything about bow hunting. Other than the fact that you use a bow to hunt, that’s about all I can tell you, but I gotta imagine that if you’re really intent on harvesting a deer out there, it’s not accidental, or is it, are you guys just driving around to pick up truck, waiting for somebody to come by and go pop? This is the ignoramus me talking.

– It can be-

– So, I’ll let you begin, give us a little bit of insight and background on this. Why bow hunting, first of all. Isn’t it easier to just with a rifle, go out there?

– You know, it depends on how you look at it, right? So, let me start from the beginnings and kind of my roots, if you will, all right? So, I was raised I’m here in Columbus, Ohio, there’s a local club called Apache Bowhunters, and ever since I was a little guy, I’ve been a member at Apache. Apache Bowhunters is single handedly, the people that are a member of that club. They’re all very near and dear to me, for instance, my aunt Marcia and my uncle Norm, you know, they’re not actual uncles. They’re not my biological aunt and uncle, but you know, I refer to them as such, because they’ve meant so much to me over the years, they raised me in many ways. They babysat me, very good friends of my dad, and, just being around those people, and there’s so many more I could name, you know, but that’s just one example of many. They’re like family to me, and being around archery ever since I was practically born, you know, my family always makes the joke that I had a bow and arrow in my hands, I was big enough to hold one, and that’s factual, you know, so fast forward a couple years, I was raised around that as a kid. A lot of my childhood memories have come from the archery and bow hunting world, and you know, again, fast forward, now it’s kinda one of those things where it’s starting to be passed on for me, and now I’ve got my little daughter and everything, my little girl that I’m able to introduce to archery and take her to shoots, and now the roles kind of reversed. Now I get to fill that kind of fatherly role and introduce her to all the things that were so great to me as a kid, and, you know, it’s had a significant impact on my life, much more than just memories. Bow hunting and the people involved in the archery industry have largely shaped who I am today as a person, I believe. They’ve had significant influence and relevance in my life, and it’s really molded me. Now, why bow hunting? So, when you look at Ohio laws, you know, so my direct answer to this would be, what was appealing about bow hunting when I was reaching those teenage years, and I could finally get out and hunt on my own, you know, I can drive, I can go to my hunting spots, I can do what I want. Well, here in Ohio and Pennsylvania, for that matter, the firearms seasons, the guns, those seasons are restricted. Here in Ohio, there’s only about a two to maybe three-week at best period, that you’re allowed to legally hunt deer with a shotgun or a gun of any kind.

– Okay.

– So, that’s why I’m appealed to bow hunting because with my bow, I can hunt from the opening day in September, all the way to the closing day of the season in late February. So I’ve got all that time in there that I can hunt. It gives me so much more opportunity, of course, being what I classify as a businessman now, working here at Dark Rhino, you know, it’s hard to find the time throughout the week, so it opens me up to a much broader possibility in terms of time. But also to the challenge of the bow, you know, with a rifle or a shotgun, I never wanna take your hunting as easy, or pitch it as easy because it definitely involves process. But, bow hunting in my opinion, much more so than gun hunting, you know, gun hunting you can just set up on the edge of a field, and you just wait for the field and you wait for the deer, while with a bow, you gotta get close, and that’s one of the things that we’ve talked about on the podcast. We’ve got a segment we call “Getting Stickbow Close,” with the hillbilly twang in there, “Getting Stickbow Close.” So in Archery, you’ve got multiple kinds of bows. You’ve got the crossbows that are arguably, you know, there are a lot of debating, we won’t get into that, but then you got compounds, you know, with the technology, the wheels, all the fancy frilly stuff. And then you have traditional bows, the typical wood bows with a string on them, you know, the fun things, and those bows are very limited. I shot professional archery for a number of years when I was a teenager in high school and even early college, and when I came out of college even, my first four years, I really spent time shooting archery. I traveled all around the country. Every month, I’d be out of the State at a tournament somewhere. But over time, I really migrated towards the traditional side of things, you know, the stickbow, the recurve. At first, I was appealed to it for the-

– How close do you have to get with that, Jordan? I mean, a recurve bow, and to me, it reminds me of the caveman, you know-

– It does, and I think that’s kind of the fun, right? I go into Woodsfield and am like Rambo now, you know, here’s my spear. But generally speaking with the recurves and the long bows, the traditional bows, you know, I keep my hunting distance 20 yards in end. So, if you were just to stand up, and take 20 steps, chances are you’ll be real close to 20 yards, and getting that close to a deer, and that’s a fairly long shot, as you’ll see in some of the video that I sent you. I’ve had opportunities at deer where I could practically reach out and touch them, if I wanted to.

– I would imagine that deer or any animal for that matter has incredible instincts, and it can smell you, it can see you, it can hear you. And in all those parameters, it outperforms a human being. It can smell more, run faster, see better, it’s stronger probably in many ways than a human being.

– Absolutely.

– How does it not become aware of you?

– So, deer are very keen animals. Deer are very well known for, so we’re talking about deer hunting here, I would just wanna, for the sake of the viewers, right? That’s kind of the generic term for hunting in this part of the country anyway, right? But deer have an exceptionable, an exceptional, excuse me, sense of smell. Deer are able to smell, and they will pick you out from forever away. Now, much like the business world, there’s many factors that come into things that have influence on outcomes. But some of them are far greater than others. So, the number one thing that a bow hunter especially needs to take into consideration, all hunters for that matter, but especially bow hunting, ’cause again, you’ve gotta get close. You’ve got to fool that deer’s nose. You’ve gotta beat it, and it’s 10 times better than what you and I can smell. So, how do you do that? Well, there’s a lot of things on the market today about, oh, you know, I can do things, like I can take a, they make special soaps that you can wash your clothes in, that have scent killers in them. So, I view these like cyber insurance. Sure, you can take a cyber insurance policy, you know what I mean? And yeah, that’s gonna protect you to a degree, but at the end of the day, and from a hunting perspective, right? Play the wind. And I’m firmly convinced as a bow hunter, now this is a pretty broad statement. But, I feel like I could leave the gym, go for a workout, go into the woods, nasty and sweaty. If I’ve got the wind, and I have predicted the wind, and I’ve read the wind, I’ve done my homework, and I have strategic areas pre-chosen based on wind direction because I know where my deer are coming from, I know where they’re bedding. I know what to generally expect. Now, that doesn’t always matter because there’s always gonna be curve balls. When you think you have a deer, what hunters call, “patterned” meaning he or she is always coming from the same area, the second you go sit in that tree to hunt that deer, you’re gonna be presented a curve ball. That deer is gonna do something different. It’s gonna go around you. It’s gonna approach from a different direction. They’re gonna know you’re there, they have a keen sense about them that even goes beyond their smell. But generally speaking, if you have the wind in your favor. So, you always want to be what we call “downwind of the deer.” So, wind’s blowing this way, I wanna be as far this way as I can, so that the deer is walking to me because the scent is carrying this way. See what I’m saying?

– So, the wind is not allowing the scent to reach the deer.

– Exactly, the wind is your number one factor when you’re hunting deer. You always have to take the wind to consideration. And there’s times Manoj when, in my hunting spots that I have, if the wind’s not correct, I simply won’t hunt, because when you’re hunting big bucks, the big, you know, Bubba’s buck, the big boy, you’ve gotta be exceptionally careful about that because if you spook them once, they very well may leave, and you probably won’t ever see them again. So, you’ve gotta be very tactful, and you’ve gotta be very careful, and you have to be very methodical in your approach to hunt that deer. Because as soon as you mess up one time, and they get wind of you or they see you, there’s a good chance, I mean, they get big for a reason, they’re smart, right?

– Yeah, obviously for it to get that big, it has survived many a hunter.

– Yep, absolutely.

– And I’m sure, do they have memory? I gotta believe they might have some level of memory in them.

– You know, it’s so funny you mentioned that because I actually did a little kind of personal study on this, over the past two seasons that I’ve hunted here in Ohio, and what I’ve noticed is last year walking in, this is the second sit that I had of the season. I went down to my uncle’s place, and I did my second hunt of the year, and I got busted. Walking in, I went in about 3:30 in the afternoon, you know, go sit for a nice evening hunt, get on my tree, stand around four, sit there until sundown, walk out a half hour after the sun sets. While walking in, I hit a little , you know, they were just piled up right there, they were all doing their thing. I didn’t even see him until I snuck in, ’cause you know, it’s early season. We’ve still got a ton of foliage on everything, a lot of undergrowth still on the ground, and I walk in, I get about 30 yards, and I’ve got six does just staring right at me.

– Oh my.

– Now, what’s the relevance to that. They obviously spooked, they ran away, right? But ever since then, what I’ve noticed is throughout the remainder of the season, those does would always, even late season, you know, we’re talking months later, they would go around that area, and if they were going to walk through that area, I watched them on numerous occasions where they would stop, well short of where they would typically enter, and they would really analyze what was going on in that area, which leads me to believe that they remembered and they recalled the interaction that they had with me.

– Interesting, and I guess it makes perfect sense because if you don’t have memory, then you may not remember the tactics that someone used to potentially hunt you, and that goes against survival.

– Absolutely, yep. And they have a survival mode just like you and I do, as a natural instinct, and to them, that’s exactly what they’re doing.

– Now, it seems like a lot of what you described, a lot of the work is in preparation of the hunt. The hunt itself may not be the most arduous part of it. It’s studying your terrain, understanding where you’re coming from, understanding wind direction, understanding your capabilities and your own weaknesses, and what are the capabilities in weaknesses of, in this case, the deer, and try to maximize that, really is a lot, very similar to sales, of course you’re not, hopefully you’re not hunting your clients, that’s a bad thing. But when you are trying to approach someone that is strategic to you, if you’re a good salesperson, you are going to do those very same things.

– Absolutely. And a lot of hunting too, now, this may be a bit overkill, but, you know, it’s something that I’ve really begun to think about in my hunting process over the last year and a half, and I really mean this. This is gonna make me sound like a total geek, but it’s true, and that’s the fact that, if I apply the principles of Six Sigma, the domain process, and I do SWOT analysis on everything that I do in the woods, before I do it, it really does help me make those calculated approaches and those calculated decisions to put me in the best possible position with the highest chance of success to be able to go in and harvest what I’m after. And it’s really crazy how that works. I mentioned to you the other day that I now have a little whiteboard that I keep for the properties that I hunt, and on that whiteboard, early season, you know, that whiteboard is aimed exclusively at just mapping out the property because every year, your SWOT analysis is going to change. For instance, two years ago we had a lot of moisture, and during that moisture, and the fact that we had so much rain on the ground, there were new, obviously not full ponds or anything, but there were new kind of marshland areas that were created by that, which opened up a lot of new opportunities for me, in the SWOT process. I still have the same strengths and weaknesses because the terrain generally remains the same as far as the hills and the valleys and the things that I can use tactically to remain hidden from the deer. But there were opportunities that presented themselves through the changes that had happened. So, change things that could be positive or negative. Thankfully for me, those turned into significant opportunities because what that did for me was, my uncle’s property that I primarily hunt, that place is, it doesn’t really hold deer, does that make sense? There’s no deer betting on that property at all. It’s more of a transition area for them. Not the ideal, but it’s what I have access to right now. But because of that new opportunity, and those new waterways and everything that were created, the deer were traveling it much more consistently, because they had access to water, they had access to food, they had access to all kinds of things that the property now held, which calls me to tweak the “O” category of my SWOT analysis, and okay, hey, now I’ve got more opportunity. Now, I have to go one step farther and define that domain process right? Now, I’ve gotta define it, I gotta measure everything going on within that opportunity, you know, I’ve gotta analyze everything. And then, once I do it and I execute on it, now I’ve gotta improve it, and I’ve gotta find a way to control it, right? Those control variables, being the key. So, in many ways, the domain process to me for hunting, is kind of reversed if you will. I always start with the control factors. What is it that I need to do to control everything that will possibly influence the deer and potentially spook them away? That’s the first question I asked. So I start with control, and then run with it from there through the whole, you know, define, measure, analyze process.

– You know, it seems to be that for training salespeople, the hunters mentality might be a great course outline. I haven’t seen that, there’s all kinds of training courses out there for salespeople. There’s a plethora of them, it’s an industry to itself. But I can’t remember when that came across. The closest thing I’ve seen is, many years ago, when I was a consultant in Cincinnati, I used to work, I had a client, Cincinnati Milacron. It was a great company, they made CNC machine tools, really big tools. And they had this thing in their marketing program called The Wolf Pack. It was The Wolf Pack approach to engineering, marketing, and bringing to market products. And it was extremely effective, and it was all about just adapting the mentality of The Wolf Pack, all the interplay, you know, leadership, decision-making, everyone doing their parts to come together and successfully bring whatever they are working on to market in the best way that they knew how to do it. That was probably the one example I’ve seen where nature was adapted to a marketing approach. But what you’re describing, I think has a lot of merit with how I would want our salespeople to view their targets. You know, you would really want them to focus on a target, and then understand a little bit about it. Pattern it, I think was the word that you used.

– Patterning, yeah. Yeah, absolutely, and I think one thing too Manoj, would be that you know, one of the most appealing things, and I think one of the, I honestly mean this, not just for the sakes of this conversation, but it’s truthful. One of the things that I think that I’m so appealed to bow hunting, is the fact that it forces you to be decisive. You have to be incredibly decisive. Now, here’s the thing. If you’re just the kinda guy that, or girl for that matter, that wants to go out in the woods, and you just wanna pick a tree that looks good, it’s got some, you know, sign and some food around it. Look, if you hunt that tree enough, you’re gonna have an opportunity. You know what I mean? It’s gonna happen, it’s just how deer are. But if you really put the time in, and you start to analyze things, so kinda like business, right? If you just try, you know, sure, you’ll make progress, but you won’t make the progress that you could, you won’t ever reach your true potential. Now, when you start to be calibrated in everything that you’re doing and you start to analyze, and you start to really apply, process to define the process, does that make sense?

– Yes.

– When you start to take those actionable steps, you’re gonna start to reach your true potential, and that potential is only gonna continue to expand, and get greater and greater. The quality of deer that you’re gonna be seeing when you really put that approach to it, is gonna continue to improve and improve and improve. You’re gonna have much more opportunity at them. You’re gonna have considerable differences in the size of the deer that you’re seeing. And that’s a lot of fun about hunting too, is when you say, okay, so why do we do things like scout pre-season? Why do I spend so much time in the woods? I’ve killed a lot of deer, okay? I’ll be honest with you about that. I’ve been fortunate enough to harvest a lot of animals. And the thing is, it’s much more fun for me now to find a deer, find a big buck on camera and hunt him, and tell myself early season, that’s it, him or bust, you know what I mean? If it’s not him, you know, but that’s fun to me because I can identify my target, and that’s like a business saying, hey, we wanna do business with this industry or this, you know, okay, great, what do you have to do to get there? What makes it happen? Define those objectives, and then once you define those objectives, you get where I’m going, you can pursue that path with much more calibrated approach.

– Now, do you feel that by being a bow hunter or maybe a long bow hunter in specific, that you’ve created for yourself a disadvantaged situation to a degree relative to some guy with a long range rifle who can sit on his porch maybe, and that’s not even fair, but yeah. But by choosing that approach, you have forced it upon yourself to necessarily follow a process, and is there a lesson there for companies where a perceived weakness can really be leveraged for a very strong leverage to gain strength?

– It can, and yes. So let me give you a little bit of archery and bow hunting context around this answer. So, hunting with a bow, especially a traditional bow, compared to a granddaddy’s rifle. So, obviously you’re at a significant disadvantage in terms of having to hunt, because now, I mean no discredit to hunters out there, but the rifle thing, like I said, you know, you can set up a 100, 200, even 300 plus yards away from a fence row that deer are cruising every day. Bow hunters can’t do that. You’ll never get the accuracy or precision that you need out of the bow. Even if you could, you would lack the energy required to be ethical in harvesting that animal, okay? So yes, you are at an automatic disadvantage. Now, what does that disadvantage do? So, I personally don’t view it as a disadvantage because see, by hunting with the recurve and the long bows, it forces me to stay on top of my craft for sure, and it’s one of those things where, you know, a rifle, for example, you sight it in, you get it zeroed. Once it’s zeroed, you still need to practice with it and be proficient with it, but you’re good to go. A bow, not so much, you know, a bow you have to constantly be practicing. So that’s why for a rifle hunter, it’s easy for them to sight in, and then, just focus squarely on hunting because they know everything’s gonna be right where it was anyway. Bow hunters, however, we have the human interaction with everything. And I think that’s another reason why I’m so appealed to traditional archery is because I controlled everything. There’s nothing mechanical on my setup. It’s all me, I’m physically attached to it with my hand. But there is the downside in that. I must always remember during the season, unlike most of your rifle hunters, I can never forget the fundamental things that I have to do. I have to make sure that I get out and practice with my bow weekly, if not daily. Because if I don’t, I’m gonna lose sync with it. But that’s also a plus side, and then I’m always staying up on my craft. I’m making sure that I’m as good as I can possibly be with it, and as a result, yes, that weakness, that’s perceived by distance, really becomes a strength because I am forced to stay one and unified with everything that I’m doing in my equipment, makes sense?

– It makes a lot of sense. So, let me get your thoughts on this. When we look at the pyramid of pain in cybersecurity, the very top of that thing is, unknown unknowns. The exclusive domain of human intelligence, not artificial intelligence, and for our listeners, if there’s anybody out there trying to tell you that they can actually address that with their world-class AI tool, I would take that with a heaping grain of salt. It’s not gonna happen. Addressing that very tip of that pyramid of pain, do you think for threat hunters, I mean, there’s been a lot of tools that have been brought to the market that in our industry are meant to, you know, you’re often looking for a needle in the haystack, and they help you look for that. The claim is in air quotes, “that will help you “find that needle in the haystack.” Some of them absolutely have their place, some of them, not so much. But do you think threat hunters, the red teams, that if they adopt a more organic approach where they lessen a reliance on just the pure tools, and get in touch with the threats, the threat intelligence, the motivations, what’s happening out there, would that be more effective in the outcomes with human-based threat hunting?

– Exponentially, yes.

– So then why the heck aren’t you preaching this with,

– So here’s the thing-

– with some of our other colleagues, if you will.

– Here’s the thing Manoj, when I think of threat hunting, and what I have as an industry professional now, I’ve been able to really understand about the different approaches to threat hunting, that very much relates to what we’re talking about with archery and bow hunting here, and that thread hunters, you’re right, it’s a manual process, right? It’s one of those things that is best done with human interaction. Now, human interaction being key, like you said, there are certainly technologies out there that are relevant, that can assist. But nothing will ever replace human interaction, and I firmly believe that. It’s one of those things where, again, in many ways, threat hunters are more valuable than technology to me because thread hunters are forced to stay, like I was talking about with my equipment, how I have to constantly rehearse. If you have a good threat hunter, that individual is going to be cutting-edge in terms of knowledge. They’re gonna know about things that, you know, are just starting to surface, and as they start to surface, they’re already gonna have a granular understanding of what it is, what’s going on, what to look for, and if you have a really good one, there’s times when of course, they can have that excessive value out of finding those unknown unknowns that the tools will miss every time. Technology only knows what it knows about. Sure, it can do correlation, it can do some of these things that, again, it definitely assist in the process, but the human element being involved especially when it comes to threat hunting in your monitored security. We look at things like, you know, there’s a lot of organizations Manoj that tried to completely automate their SOC operations, you know, okay that’s great-

– Sure, the term SOC is a thing now. There’s a lot of people marketing it.

– Absolutely, autonomous SOC, ensure it has value. Nobody’s denying that. However, having that analyst on the other side, to actually say, okay, hey the technology is telling me this, but let me investigate this. That’s gonna significantly reduce things like your false positives, and more importantly, ’cause false positives not to downplay them, you’re still being alerted, good, hey, we caught it, it was a red flag, but it’s really okay. All right, but on the contrary, what that can do is take those things that aren’t right incidents, that aren’t popping as alerts that actually are alerts, and all of that noise lying on the underground, there could be a lot of things going on in there that are incredibly malicious to an environment, and the ability to find those, in my opinion, is one of those situations where the human element is really the only answer to be able to truly correlate that find those unknown unknown variables, bring them to the forefront, and more importantly, find ways to guard against them in the future.

– And yeah, at that point, we know the TTP and now you can encode that into some kind of an automation, but it gets back to the way you’re taking your approach to hunting. In general, it’s a very organic activity, and you have to practice that craft in a repetitive way and understand all the parameters of what’s gonna influence the outcome, and control as much of that as you can. you can’t control everything, but you can control, as I heard you speak, that’s what I was thinking-

– Yeah I know, and you’re absolutely right, the control factor in hunting is key, you know, control everything that I can. Sure, I can jump on a top of a map, I can find an area that looks deery, if you will. I can find an area that in theory looks great, much like an autonomous SOC, or something to that tune, but nothing beats me being in the woods, finding the deer, finding the sign, and making my calibrated decisions based on the direct threat hunter intel that I have received from going in firsthand, directly analyzing the situation, and then determining my best path forward.

– So, Jordan, let me ask you this. What’s the role of patience in the finality of the outcome as a hunter?

– Bow hunting a lot. Patience is key. There’s many times when you’ll catch me on my tree stand, and I’ll be nodding off, and yeah, it’s fun. I’ve woken up twice, I fell asleep, and I was just sitting there doing nothing, being incredibly patient, and I wake up, I open my eyes and there’s deer underneath me.

– Speaking of which, you sent us a little clip, describe, was that a video of you nodding off in the stand, we’ll put it up on the screen, so our audience can follow along here.

– [Jordan] That was not a video of that.

– [Manoj] So we’re playing it, go ahead. Tell us a little bit it.

– [Jordan] So, here’s the thing with this video. So, why did I send this to you? Well, first of all, it’s relevant to a lot of what we’ve been talking about in ways. Let me start by saying this. You’re gonna see a deer walking under my tree. I was not sleeping, okay? I was in my tree stand, so I had walked in, I climbed up into my tree stand, and I was just starting to sit down and in came this deer. That deer, based on my intel, was not supposed to be there. Not supposed to be there, whatsoever. For weeks previously, I had not seen, early season, your deer are very patterned, meaning that they generally show up roughly the same times. Does that make sense? Now as the season progresses, and you get in later into the season, that pattern breaks up, and then towards the end of the season, it starts to come back a little bit more. That’s more of the typical deer hunter approach, and it is factual. So, I had patterned this deer for weeks ahead of time, and I wasn’t seeing anything until about 4:15, 4:30, so I snuck in my stand about 3:30, got situated, in comes this deer, and he’s walking right under me, I’m thinking, where are you at? ‘Cause I have to be very careful, that’s not the deer I’m after. But seeing him is a very good sign because he’s generally speaking, the first deer, one of the first couple of deer that walked through in the late afternoon, early evening, and then the bigger deer that I’m after, tends to follow him, closer to dark. So again, it comes back to the calibrated approach. That deer shouldn’t have been there, threw me for a loop. So, you know, we can talk about things like the threat hunting. Well, I knew what I knew, right? I knew that I’ve got all the intel on the world. This is right, this is wrong. I’ve patterned that, I’ve correlated it. Okay, well this is your baseline. Okay, well, why is that you’re there? What’s he doing there? Why? I didn’t know. Well, I started watching him, and as the video goes on, you’ll see him start to go off up the hill. What I didn’t get because I was sitting incredibly still, and not moving a muscle, was about five minutes later, in came three or four more does behind him, and that’s a really good sign for me. So, the pattern of events was developing with what I’ve seen, but the problem is that the timeline wasn’t correct. Timeline was off, sequence was the same. Well, in they come, I’m thinking, okay, tonight’s gonna be the night. Everything’s following sequentially. Well, it never happened. He never came in, the deer that I was ultimately after. Never hit, never showed up, never seen him, I got my hopes up. Well, get to be about 6:30 at night, which is when the sun’s just starting to set and everything. So as a bow Hunter in Ohio, you’re allowed to be in the actually hunting a half-hour beyond the actual sunset, so if it says the sun sets at seven o’clock, you can legally shoot up to 7:30.

– Okay.

– 6:30, I hear a noise behind me. So I’m looking back, nothing, looking back, nothing. All of a sudden, I hear this noise you never wanna hear as a hunter, it’s called blowing. The deer, he blew at me, meaning he saw me, he smelled me, something. I still to this day don’t know what happened. But what did that deer do? So, everything went as planned, wasn’t alerted to anything. I was thinking, okay, sequence of events, still the same, just sit tight, here it comes. That deer made a totally different path, he knew I was there. He knew what he was doing. Apply that to the threat hunting mentality. So, everything looks fine. Everything is going on, your baseline, everything’s going on, all it takes is that one time, that one time Manoj, and you know this better than anybody, right? As an industry professional, that one time that somebody catches onto that like a baseline kind of thing, they go around the back, you’ll never even know they’re there until they’re exposed. Something has to expose that, and then once that becomes to the forefront and it becomes known, how do you get it to that point? That’s the question. How does that happen? And again, pointing back to the value of human intelligence and threat hunting. To me, that’s the only way to do it because if there were a recon going on and somebody investigating that situation, you may have caught it.

– Now, let me just briefly go in a little bit of a different direction. You were also in the Marine Corps.

– Correct.

– And as an organization, did the Marine Corps apply these principles in their operation?

– From a cyber perspective?

– From a cyber perspective, just from a military mission planning perspective.

– Yeah, well, if you look at it from a mission planning perspective, yes, absolutely. The military is a very calibrated, calculated environment. It’s very contingency management-based. There’s a lot of fundamental changes to the approach by which they approach things based on environments. You know, a full-blown combat environment is fundamentally very different than a peaceful garrison environment, right? So the method by which, you know, command and order structure is given, is fundamentally very different. However, the result always remains, the end state goal always comes across in the same manner. You always reach that same kind of objective, if you will, but do you yell it and scream it and force it? Or do you slowly but surely enforce new policies, see where I’m going?

– Yeah, and I would hope that it would be more of the slowly enforced new policies.

– Right, there’s definitely a time and a place, in place though-

– There are some situations where yeah, you can issue a direct command, but by and large, in a company, when you’re looking at a company and you want to change the culture or change the direction of an organization, if it was as easy as picking up your pen and writing a memo or penning an email and saying, “As of tomorrow, everybody will behave this way.” I think you would have very nimble organizations, but we all know from practical experience, that’s not how a company works because that’s not how human nature works.

– Colonel Barr told me that, you know, he sat me down one day and he said, at the time I was Corporal Graham, “Corporal Graham, come here,” and he had this real deep voice, big guy, just big stalky guy, sits me down, and he says, Jordan, come here, Corporal Graham, get over here. Okay, he goes, hey, you know, “the only way you’re ever gonna get people to do “what you need them to do is when you not only serve them, “but they actually know that you serve them.” Think about that. You’ll never get people to do what you need them or want them to do, until you serve them, and they actually buy into the fact that, okay, this guy serves us. And I think that’s one of the areas, actually I know fundamentally, that is one of the areas that the military excels at. The upper management, being the higher ranking officers and your high-level enlisteds, they generally, the ones that are successful, serve their people. And that’s just a mentality that the military possesses that if you’re gonna get up into those upper ranks, and you’re gonna gain the respect, you’ve gotta do it, and you can’t fake it. That’s one thing I love about the military environment. You can’t fake it because there’s so many things and decisions that they make that directly impact everyone below them, if they’re in it for themselves, or if they’re in it for anything more than their people, it’s gonna be exposed very quickly. Does that make sense?

– It makes sense. And that actually reverts me back to the topic of patience, yet again. And that is, you mentioned a little while ago that sometimes you just won’t hunt, or you will go out and sit under a tree stand for hours. And even though the signs may be right, still nothing comes of it, but you still maintain that patience and you’ll do it. You’ll do that over and over again in spite of not getting a result with that one attempt. And I,

– Right.

– I think a lot of people quit when a lot of companies quit, when that happens.

– Right, right. And Manoj, this makes me, so it pivoted you back to that, this pivots me to the Dark Rhino mentality on everything we do. Look, if we can’t do it, and we can’t rock it, and we can’t own it, we’re not gonna do it. We do the things that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we, Dark Rhino Security can deliver. If we can’t deliver it, we’re not gonna do it, straightforward. Same thing applies to the bow hunting situation. If I’m not at my best, if I know that there’s something in there right now, something going on conditionally, that I can’t control, and something that is going to obviously impact my objective in a very detrimental way, I’m gonna do one of two things. I’m gonna fix the problem, and if I can’t find a fix for it to get around it, I’m just not gonna execute. I’m not saying I’m gonna quit, but there’s a time and a place when you have to step back, you have to analyze, and you have to constantly improve domain Six Sigma, right? Incorporate the improve element to your process, and if you can’t find a way to improve it to get it where it needs to be, so that you can actually have control over what you’re doing, why do it? That’s a life principle for me now too.

– And on that note, we’re actually coming up on the hour. But I do have one, just side question for you. And then, I want you to tell us a little bit about your podcast and for the listeners, plug those a little bit if you’d like. Pistol hunting versus bow hunting, do pistol hunters face the same challenges?

– Pistol or rifle?

– Pistol.

– Pistol.

– Handgun.

– That’s interesting, you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to harvest two deer with a pistol, a 45-70. And, it’s one of those things where I would say so, you know, I would say that the pistol hunters absolutely have more of a bow hunters hunting mentality. You have to get close, you’re restricted in your ability to, sure, you could arguably say that you can definitely reach out farther than a bow, you know but with what level of accuracy and precision out of a pistol? You know what I mean?

– Yeah.

– So yeah, I would say that the pistol hunters are very much in line with that of bow hunters,

– I was just curious

– in terms of their approach. Yeah, that’s a good question actually. It’s a good thing to ponder.

– It just occurred to me and I don’t even know why, but ’cause I don’t know anything about either of them, and whatever I know I learned in the last hour here. So Jordan, do you wanna give us a little bit, a plug on some of the podcasts that you do, and we’ll put them in the show notes as well?

– Yeah, so my new one it’s called The Bow Hunters Heritage, and what The Bow Hunters Heritage does is we just get on, and I talked to a lot of my, most of my friends are older around here, and I mean older, the most of them are up in their sixties, seventies, some even up in their eighties now. The guys that I, and girls for that matter that I was raised around as a kid, and we talk about all things, bow hunting. One of my favorite topics to do is just bring on random guys who have been there, done that, been around the block. They know more about hunting than I’ll probably ever know, and just get them on, pick their brains a little bit. And one of the consistent things that you’ll see in a lot of these guys, is their passion for what they do. Bow hunting is something that you get into, it sticks with you for a lifetime because it instills values in you that are well worth the merit. And we talk a lot about that and why bow hunting means so much to them. It’s just one of those things that I’m trying to have for the next generations, in my generation for that matter, so that they can have access to some of the information from what I deemed to be some of the greatest hunters to ever live.

– That’s fantastic, Jordan. Thank you for sharing that. We’ll make sure we’ll put the links in the show notes.

– Thank you.

– And on that, we’re gonna say goodbye. Thanks for being here, Jordan.

– Thank you very much.